I am looking for opinions on the parity between PCA stock prepared cars versus ITS prepared 944's. I see the PCA cars can run 8/9" wide wheels, remote reservoir dampers, plastic bumpers, rear coilovers at 2600lb. The SCCA cars are only allowed 7" wide wheels, non reservoir dampers, 5" minimum ride height, no plastic body parts at 2600lb. If both must have no more than 144hp it would seem like the PCA cars would have the upper hand here.
We only have one PCA race a year within a reasonable tow, so we use SCCA races primarily. Some of us hope to travel to a common venue someday, so I would like to better understand the logic behind the current weights as assigned. Greg F.

Hey Greg:

Have not had many well equipped SCCA cars with us recently so the on track comparisons are hard to bring up here. Our first year of existence, a SCCA car won the championship and in convincing fashion against other PCA Prepared cars. There was a car at Nationals that I owned and sold that qualified 4th that was SCCA when I sold it a couple of years ago. So SCCA cars can definitely be competitive.

I would venture a guess that if Greg F. were in a well developed scca car at Nationals, you would be on the podium very likely, and win most Regionals you race in back East. Of all the items u list in yur comparison, the only item that makes a difference that is hard for a good driver to overcome is the tire width in the rear. And maybe argues for a drop in weight for the scca cars. Think we did recenty lower that weight. The rules are final for this year, just waiting to be posted, but remind at the end of 2010 for consideration.

adn, if u woudl liek to make that PCA event in yur area part of the NW schedule for 2010, let me know and it can be arranged. A good way to get some head to head comparisons and a nice change of pace for your drivers.

Greg the smaller ITS wheels are lighter, the appropriate tires would also be lighter. The tires would have better aerodynamic drag and less frictional losses. ITS cars are also allowed some other advantages, like adjustable brake bias etc. Ok, ok, just having some fun, but I do agree that if equally prepared and driven cars went head to head the PCA cars would have an advantage.......I think.

You will just have to get your SCCA region to incorporate 944 Cup rules as a Regional class. Then you can have all the PCA car advantages.

Bill

ps. Other SCCA Regions are adding SP2 and SP3 to their list of regional classes, with National approval. So the road has been paved if u so desired, that way u can take full advantage of Cup rules, and maybe even a split start for teh 944's.

I made a push last year for our local group to also do the PCA event at Rose Cup, but nearly everyone balked at the cost and clumsiness of getting entered for the PCA grid. I will try again this year and see if the response is better. I am negotiating now for a 944 Cup grid with ICSCC at their Spokane race facility for July to run with their Pro 3 cars ( essentially Spec 325 BMW)
I think that before the PCA cars were allowed to remove their A/C compressors, interior, etc and with no power limit the SCCA cars would have been better. Right now I feel we have a good economic balance with our cars by following the SCCA guidelines but not exploiting every rule. For instance; none of us have changed the final drive ratio, etc. I think until our ailing economy picks up substantially we will continue to use the ITS regulations no matter if we are in our own grid or not. Out here 7X15 cookies are still $300 a set. All of our cars are between 2625lb and 2640lb at the end of a race, so we are not very close to the 2575lb SCCA weight right now anyway. Greg

Doing the PCA event may help grow the series and bring some additional 944's to the other races. Drivers must sometimes be dragged into the future, whether they like it or not, if it is to benefit the series, even if it doesnt fit their own personnel agenda.

Silly as it sounds, one of the complaints was the requirement to attend the Friday classroom session where they take about 3 hours to explain what flags are, etc. ( my complaint was the extra $500 to do the PCA half of the weekend on top of the $390 for the SCCA grids) I will be more pro-active this year to try and get us in the PCA grids for the Portland Club race. I think we put on a pretty good show here, the workers always enjoy the 944 scaps that break out when we are on track. Greg

Oooo don't mention "scraps" to PCA!
Since PCA reciprocates SCCA licenses and vice versa(thanks to me) I don't see why you would be required to attend the Friday night Chalktalk. However, I've never ran with that region.
The plus to the Chalktalk is to see who the newbies are.

Susan Shire is the person to talk to about that isue and racing with PCA. She is a former(current?) SCCA racer and the National Licensing person for PCA. Her email is on the Club Racing section of PCA.org.

Now back to your original question. We would all like to know the answer to this!
PCA cars could run the little wheels and tires but we don't cause bigger is supposedly better. The SCCA wheels' lighter unsprung weight has to help on some tracks though. I can tell you that at Road Atlanta my driving style likes 245-16s much better than 225-15s on the same car. Don't know which is faster, but I know which feels better to me.

I ran my ITS 944S in SuperCup in 2008 when I think the weight differential was greater. Did well. Out qualified the eventual SC National champion at Roebling that year. I also finished well in the SCCA races I ran, but it became too tempting to add the supposed go fast stuff allowed in PCA.

This year a friend really wanted to run SC in his ITR 944 S2 but was making 30HP too much. He won the ARRC(setting a new record)and was completely SCCA legal when torn down.

At any rate, I think SCCA cars are competitive but most of us just can't resist the temptation of spending money.

The weight difference in the wheels is virtually non-existent between Fuchs 8X15 and ATS 7X15. The 7X15 Fuchs is 1lb lighter. The unsprung weight difference is a red herring... the difference that matters to a 2.5l 8V 944 is the O.D. of the drive tires when you run the standard diff ratio. My ITS car at Portland runs 1:22.2 with no chicane in ITS trim. We installed 8X17 and 10X17 Fikse wheels and ran an 8hr enduro. All four drivers in the car managed to get into the 22's, but no one went any quicker than the 22.2. We tried it the next year and changed out the 275/40-17 rear tires for 245/40-17 Hoosiers and the car was able to get to the 22.2 lap time.
I agree that the temptation to throw $ at the car is always there; my comments were more to point out the number of technical advantages the PCA cars enjoy now with equalized HP over the ITS cars. The good news is that with 144hp, not much tire width is really required to get decent lap times anyway.... Greg F